How to Build Brand and Product in Tandem

When brand and product teams operate as pen pals instead of co-authors, the result is a fractured user experience that undercuts trust and growth.

In this second episode of our Brand & Product Series, Focus Lab CEO Bill Kenney reunites with Max Q Partner Lee Eisenbarth to explore how B2B companies can build brand and product together — from day one.

Drawing from real-world examples like Linear, Slack, Ledger, and Headspace, Bill and Lee unpack what it looks like when design systems, onboarding flows, microcopy, and even 404 pages reflect a brand’s soul, not just its style.

What we cover:

• Why cohesive brand-product experiences are rare (and how to change that)
• Tactical ways to align product UX with brand values—without a big budget
• Real-world examples where “on-brand” shows up in surprising micro-moments
• How to design for emotional trust, even in technical B2B environments
• The role of internal teams in scaling brand consistently (not just marketing)

Whether you’re shipping an MVP or scaling a design system, this episode is a practical guide to building product with brand as your blueprint — not an afterthought.

Episode Resources

• Learn more about MaxQ
• "Brand Isn't the Frosting. It's the Framework." (Article by Lee Eisenbarth)
• Connect with Lee on LinkedIn
• Print Magazine / Headspace Brand Article

Full Transcript

[Lee Eisenbarth]

As a steward of brand and product, take a look and see like, okay, is this telling one cohesive story from the homepage all the way to interacting with the product itself, or does it feel like four different teams built it?

[Bill Kenney]

I think that's a really big takeaway. The devil is in the details and it says a lot about everything else you do.

[Bill Kenney]

Hey everyone, this is Bill Kenney, CEO and co-founder of Focus Lab, a global B2B brand agency. I'm back with the second episode of our recent conversation with Lee Eisenbarth about product and brand. You know when you log into an app, or your favorite software, and it just feels right. It feels on brand. That's because those organizations have understood the reality that brand is all of the touchpoints. It's not brand as a marketing effort and software as a functioning tool. They are one. That is the company. The software is the company, it is the brand.

So in the second episode of In Conversation, Lee and I talk about how to pull that off. We speak in ways that presume there's a startup founder in the room and we are trying to share tips and tricks of these subtle ways that you might pull brand into a software experience, simply. Not giant efforts that can have a huge timeline and a lot of cost. Things like the onboarding experience, moments of delight in the onboarding experience,

So another great episode talking about this world of brand and product and how they should be one. I hope you enjoy.

[Bill Kenney]

Mr. Lee, back at it. It’s been 24 hours. Literally, it’s been 24 hours. Off mic we actually talked about sleep deprivation. Not brand but sleep debt. How’d you sleep last night? Alright?

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Uh, no. So I know when this comes out, uh, the Pacers playoffs will, will long be over and hopefully we'll have an NBA championship. No offense if you're a Knicks fan. Uh, but I was up late watching that, and then I was also changing a diaper at 2:00 AM and then I woke up at like 4:00 AM to go work out.

So, no, I did not sleep well, but I plan on catching up on my sleep debt tonight.

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah, for the people that didn't put it together, we talked a lot about brand debt off camera, we fell into the sleep debt conversation. Tough loss for the Knicks, great win for the Pacers. It's hard not to root for them.

You should have just pulled it all nighter. You should have just pulled an all nighter. Diapers? What's a diaper? Who cares? We got a W.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

No, I wanted to be prepared for you. Prepared for episode two. Uh, so here we are.

[Bill Kenney]

Here we are. For the people that didn't see episode one, and we don't want them to stop and go listen to the intro, do you want to do maybe like a 30 second intro. Who are you?

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Who, who am I? Yeah, I'm Lee Eisenbarth. I've spent the last 15ish years, not only just pushing pixels, but steering strategy. I've also occasionally Googled, like, is this normal during startup chaos?

I'm a born designer and have designed brands for seed stage teams that have no money, all the way to helping big organizations like the Department of Defense and the Marines build software that's mission critical. So, that's a little bit about me.

[Bill Kenney]

All the perspectives, which is why you're on the show because. As a reminder, we're talking about brand and product and how those worlds should be tightly woven and not two separate entities that get worked on, on two different timelines or just one is being worked on and one is completely negated, et cetera.

In the first episode, we talked about why, why does that exist? Why does that misconception exist in the market? Why do, more often than not, software products start out as product, product, product, product only to realize, oh my God, we gotta do something around brand. They're not often starting at the same point. So this episode is about working in tandem.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Woo.

[Bill Kenney]

Like those wonderful two-seater bicycles like the one my wife and I rented when we went to Chicago when we rode all the way up Lake Michigan. Not to the end, that would be really far.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

That's awesome.

[Bill Kenney]

So we're gonna, we're now gonna talk about how to live that same experience on brand and product. So, why don't you lead us in with just this idea, can it be done in tandem? And maybe some kind of early thoughts around what that actually looks like.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Yeah, absolutely. so I didn't mention, I lead the design practice at MaxQ. Our whole bread and butter is this concept. It's design, it's strategy, it's product, it's engineering, all talking, all cohesive as one. And so when we talk about like brand and product in tandem.

It definitely doesn't mean product builds first and then throws something over the fence to the brand team. No. It really means that every decision piece of micro copy, feature, flow, is kind of rooted in a shared story and it's not just aligning visuals, it's aligning purpose and values. Brand and product, uh, what's a good analogy? They should be co-authors, not pen pals.

[Bill Kenney]

Yes, yes, yes,

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Yeah. And you asked about real world examples. So, uh, have you ever heard of a company called Linear?

[Bill Kenney]

I know the company you're talking about, like dark mode, brand, Linear? It gets referenced a lot in my world.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Okay, perfect. Uh, it should, because it's badass and every inch of their product reflects their brand. It's fast, it's focused, there's zero fluff, and when you log into the product it feels exactly like the homepage does. And I'm not a betting man, but I imagine if Linear goes to conferences and those types of things, the materials they would hand out their booth, all of that kind of visual and experiential design would match.

And so, like that's one company that's doing it extremely well. I think another, it's been hard to make email different than it always has been. But Superhuman, they talk about being the fastest email experience ever and they don't just say it.

Like when you log into the product and you're actually using it, they prove it. It's every interaction, including, if you want to, live onboarding with a real person. Uh, and so I just think those things are fascinating and I think those are two in particular who are doing it well. I'm sure there are many, many others.

Who comes to mind when, when you think about someone who's doing it well?

[Bill Kenney]

When I try to think about, where does it feel seamless? Not just a product that does a thing with like a paint job on the marketing side website and they feel totally different from a visual execution and experience perspective.

I think about some other players that we are all familiar with, like a Notion. Those two worlds feel the same. You don't feel like you get duped when you get to the product and you're like, wait, what is this? I've been sold the wrong thing.

Because I think what we see often, because we work with companies like yourself often, is when we start to get to building brand assets and we're asking, what are we gonna put on this page or that page on the website. Sometimes they are literally saying, you can't put our product on the website because it’s dated and we're working on it, but it's not gonna help us sell basically. So we have to do an abstracted version of the product.

That is very, very common, which is why we're talking about this. Uh, so Notion definitely comes to mind. I just started using this other app, Granola.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Oh, I love Granola.

[Bill Kenney]

This one feels as simple as they project it to be, right? It is marketed and its brand is simple and then you get into the product and it's simple and it's like that's, that's what it is. Yeah, I don't know.

Uh, what other products do I use that represent themselves exactly the way that you would think? I mean, I know we kind of talked about crypto yesterday and the downfalls of the user experience of crypto, but when I think about logging into Ledger, although it's intimidating, it is clearly technical.

The brand presents itself as highly technical and the experience in the app, in the device, is very seamless. For the type nerds, it's a type driven brand in the way that that crypto experience doesn't have a lot of assets, right? You're not worried about people and community and all these things, right?

So it's just down to the technical aspects of moving a cryptocurrency across the chain, right? So it's a lot of numbers. It's a numbers game at that point, and Ledger has a very like technically driven type face even within their standard kind of body copy and all that.

So that one feels seamless. It doesn't feel like cool, sexy, flashy website, old school, clunky interface experience. Again, seamless, seamless, seamless. These things have to be, there has to be a duality there.

It's not one in the other, the closer they are the same, which you and I would say they are the same. There has to be a North star that drives what you're building, why you're building, how it looks, how it, it has to all be the same thing. It's not just a tool.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Yep. I love it.

[Bill Kenney]

Let's talk about ways that this shows up even more clearly. I want us to pretend that there's a startup founder in the room and they're like, okay, okay. I get it. I hear you. It makes sense. I understand the point that they should be the same, and why that's valuable. Let's give some clear examples beyond just consistency. We've connected that dot.

They should look and feel the same, but like where are the opportunities? Where do these opportunities lie for moments of delight? You used that word a couple times, appropriately so in the last episode. Where do those opportunities show up in what a technical founder might think is just software. This is software and they’re happy with that, but we know there's opportunity for delight in there. Where are those?

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Yeah, that's a good question. I'll take it a step further too and say like, what can founders do without spending 50K on a project? Like what can we do today? Um, so like, uh, a couple things that come to mind.

At MaxQ we talk a lot about a one sentence brand belief. And so, it's essentially like what truth are we here to prove for our users?

Um, one example, uh, Slack. Slack is awesome for many reasons, but their internal belief, I would characterize it as, work should feel less like work. Maybe I stole that from their marketing page. I don't know. Um, but it shaped their tone, it shaped their features. And even how notifications sound, like that's a piece of branding as well, that so many people overlook.

That's, that's the first thing that is, is free. Create a one sentence brand belief and take that and essentially use that as like a filter for whatever decision it is you're trying to make as a brand, or as a founder rather. Uh, another thing I've seen people do and I encourage everyone to do is, no matter how close you are to the product, have your significant other or your mom audit your products per first five minutes.

Like, from homepage. to sign up. to first interaction. And one, see what happens. Uh, usually it's not great depending on what you're trying to use because I'm getting called for helping mom with all sorts of tech problems already.

You as a steward of brand and product, can take a look and see, like, okay, is this telling one cohesive story from the homepage all the way to interacting with the product itself? Or does it feel like four different teams built it? Um, you were talking about Notion earlier, they nail this. It's clean, it's calm, it's extremely thoughtful.

All the way from the landing page to their onboarding. Their brand tone is absolutely uninterrupted. I think that a product and brand audit, and if you really wanna, uh, get spicy, have your mom do it, or, or your significant other, I, I think it'll tell a lot because oftentimes when we're working on something, or if you're a founder working on something, you're so close to it and it's your baby and you miss things that your significant other will not miss.

[Bill Kenney]

Surely people know to click here. Surely people understand what the next step is in populating this empty state product. No, maybe not, maybe not.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

It's beyond frustrating. One other thing that comes to mind, something that would take some effort and is not free, but I would say inject personality into one micro moment.

And so like, what I mean by that is finding a small, unexpected place to kind of show who you really are. That could be a loading screen. Um, Ledger does a good job of this. Adds credentials and stuff that are loading. You know exactly what's happening behind the scenes. Empty states, uh, are a huge place you can add personality, whether it's through illustration, whether it's through animated gifs, or even interactive Rive components.

Like you can do all those things and the same is true with 404 pages. When you land on a 404 page, it's usually not a good thing. And so if, if you make that a positive experience, you can show off your brand's personality.

Just like we were talking yesterday about Asana's, uh, narwhal and flying unicorn, it's totally unnecessary, but it is absolutely delightful. And here we are talking about it again, day two.

[Bill Kenney]

You know, the 404 page is interesting because to me it signals the first time I realized where these kinds of opportunities were when we were a young shop and we were doing site design and how, how 404 pages were treated, really uniquely.

And that was the opportunity to have a lot of fun on those pages from a design perspective because that's just like where that happened. And that just became like the norm. But now I think about it like, oh yeah, originally that's just like an error state page, eh you're lost. But then like the creative community, designers, developers, et cetera, kind of adopted this mindset of like, that's where you really do the silly stuff, right?

So then there's like 10 best 404 page sites, because people are really trying to push the creativity on those pages. And you're right, like that can now be played at a micro level within products, within an actual software tool of an error state, for example. You only have a little tiny opportunity. It's not as big as a 404 page, but it doesn't have to be like red, weird code that I don't know what it is, feel like I just broke the app?

Or it could be a dialed down version of an alert color that's appropriate within the brand identity that is within the voice of the identity as well. Whether that's comforting, witty, still serious, maybe you don't know, but that’s an opportunity.

It's not just error: number. It doesn't have to be that way.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

I kind of view it like we were talking about brand debt, right? I view investing in these micro moments as a way to show the user like, we have thought about everything, and we've been very thoughtful throughout this entire process. You land on our 404 page. Imagine what we did with our onboarding.

I think it's a good test of who's paying attention or not. But it, it really is like, it's a micro moment. Engineering leaders may not fully approve, like creating a game on the 404 page, like the Google Chrome dinosaur game. I don't know if you've ever played that.

Um, it doesn't have to be that elaborate. You can do just these tiny moments of delight. It could be goofy copy. Um, it could be a number of things.

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah. I really like your point on the intentionality speaks to the broader build and brand. There is definitely a psychological play there. Say if I'm gonna tear down a wall in my house and I tear it down and I see that the wiring behind the wall that I couldn't see before was done really quick and super shoddy, or the plumbing is run in a really weird way. I'm now feeling a particular way about what else might be living in these walls that was not done with care. If I take that down and I'm like, wow, that's the cleanest, most organized build I've seen behind a wall, I feel a different way about my house.

No different than the product. I think your point is spot on. When you see those little touches of intention, you're like, if they thought that much about that little area, I can trust that the build is right, that the core functionality of this thing probably is like pristine code. You know? Um, I think that's a really big takeaway.

The devil is in the details and it says a lot about everything else you do. And people, consciously or subconsciously will connect those dots. Like we talked about the sticky menu, right? You sit down and you get some sticky ass menu, and you're like. I know that the kitchen's dirty. I know it’s dirty in there and they’re not going to fool me with some good flavored food.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Yeah. Even though I'll probably still eat all of it.

[Bill Kenney]

Yes. And uh, they're gonna ask me how it was, and I'm gonna tell 'em good. Even if I feel different. But it actually matters. It really matters. The build matters, the small moments matter. Uh, I think the onboarding is the easy opportunity, like you said. Build some flow into the onboarding where it's not just fill out a form, click a button, fill out a form, click a button, make this feel like some frigging IRS sign up, right?

Bring some personality to that flow, whether it's micro animations, an opportunity for an illustration. If you're more like a Notion, maybe an opportunity more for imagery, if it's more of a people-driven experience so it doesn't feel so computerized.

Two brands I was thinking about this morning and where this really shines are Slack and Microsoft teams. Similar product, similar purposes, right? Internal communication, text-based video calls, these types of things, but a very different branded experience.

Slack is meant to signify, make work easy. Things are simple. Even jumping onto a quick voice call with somebody. It's called a huddle.

It's not even called a meeting. That's an intentional word choice. You flip a toggle and you're in it. In Teams, that's a very different experience, right? It's professional, more steps involved.

Some would argue, we're obviously on one side of this scale, but the people in that world would argue like, but that's what they're meant to project, which is confidence and security and governance, because now we're a big business and everything has to be security layered and all these things that maybe

And maybe Slack feels too quick and whimsical, but the point remains like the same exact products serving the same exact types of features, a very different feel. That’s the brand that drives that. That's the statement you talked about, which is, what's the ultimate statement that drives all the decisions?

It's not to build the Team's product and then project it as Slack. Meaning, we want work to be easy and fun, but we've built the Team's product, which feels highly technical and full of friction. Those worlds can't come together. That's where brand and product, they have to be the same.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Yeah, I totally agree. I think I said some flavor of this in the previous episode, but people believe that brand is what you see. It's actually what you feel. There's that saying of, you're never gonna remember what someone said, but you're going to remember how you made them feel. It's about taking care of people.

It's about coming up and showing up with your best self and being genuine. I think the same is true for brand, and like if I'm thinking, I know we’re just coming off a Config conference, but like Figma, everything down to their cursors and FigJam, their use of emojis and the collaboration aspect of all of their different tools.

That's not just user experience. It's enforcing Figma’s brand of, I believe it's “designing together”. And so these are easy things to overlook. However, if you approach it in a way where you're being intentional and just like the James Clear book, Atomic Habits, small steps along the way add up over time. This is a big cruise liner, but one degree of change is going to really impact the long term trajectory.

The same is true for these touchpoints we’ve been talking about.

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah. I would want the startup founder who is product-focused to really embrace this idea that it can be a small, incremental change. What Lee and I are not saying is, you've screwed up. You now need to stop the whole machine, bring both machines together, time and money, and then restart the machine.

We're just saying don't go so far down the road where you really are thinking about, what do we need to throw away now? What needs to be completely rebuilt from a product technical experience perspective, and all these things,

The earlier you get ahead of it, and the way that you might parse it out would save you from someone like that long-term pain.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Yeah. I totally agree.

[Bill Kenney]

I do understand though, I gotta build an MVP. I gotta get outta the gate. I gotta test this thing and see if I can even get some users.

Okay, I will forgive you for not even slowing down and saying like, why do we exist? We need to make sure that we're worrying about our onboarding experience, all this stuff. It's easy to get stuck there though.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

I think too, like a quick way, you know, that your brand and your product aren't really aligned, is when there is confusion, when there's churn, or a homepage that says one thing, but the onboarding feels like government paperwork. There are some signals that you can pay attention to of, oh, maybe this is something I should pay attention to.

Everyone should be paying attention to it.

[Bill Kenney]

Why does everybody get stuck at this step in the onboarding process and dip?

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Yeah, exactly.

[Bill Kenney]

Right? There's a user flow problem there. But yeah, maybe you could have smoothed that out with some branded moments with some communication. Sure. Simplifying it, you know, these types of things.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Yeah. Better microcopy, the list goes on and not all of these things are expensive. Some of them are free.

[Bill Kenney]

Yep. Take a little bit of time and intention. And I think that’s probably, you know, the gonna be the biggest takeaway of the three episodes is just, just think about it.

And everyone will figure out what's right for them. What level of effort is right for them, where they are in that cycle of, have we brought them together?

Are they close? Have they not even been considered together at all? Is it just marketing versus product? These types of things. Let's talk about scale. Let's talk about this idea that like, how can organizations build in a way that would allow them to scale as they grow? And what does that look like?

[Lee Eisenbarth]

I think it starts with some of the things we've covered already, but it's a shared brand belief. I think there's also this argument for design systems that are not just components or something that lives in Figma, but it's something that has a soul and that is in the code base.

Like when we talk about scale and when it comes to brand and product, you need to have something such as a design system in place to really make it work. And that brand team should be part of putting together that design system alongside the engineering team. Um, like the brand guidelines and making sure you have a clear voice and tone, all those types of things, I think help scale.

[Bill Kenney]

Do you think there’s a world where you can go too far? You can over brand your product?

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Yeah, I mean this is a designer deep cut, but if you're on Dribbble circa 2016, there were some beautiful interfaces. Absolutely gorgeous. And I'm sure there are still some on there today, but they could never get implemented. And so like you can over invest in all of these brand moments and have it not pay off because it's not something that can actually be implemented down the line. That's the first example that kind of comes to mind.

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah, there's a balance in there. It makes me think of it's a little bit of a different medium and context, but, websites that are super axed and everything's moving and you're scrolling up and down it, it can technically be built, but the actual like function of it now is really getting lost.

It's really hard for a user to scroll through that and get the information they need other than just being like, I guess you're telling me you're super creative and you can do a lot of moving parts on a web build.

But I'm not here to learn that necessarily, I'm here to see how you can serve me and my pain point. And if it's not that they want something like that, then that's a bunch of wasted energy.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Oh, 1000%. I feel like so often, these Series B, Series C companies have larger marketing apparatuses and engineering departments, and there just becomes this factory-esque process. And I feel like when we're talking about scale, like consistency and process does not have to kill creativity, it should be woven into that process.

And so like, I just feel like these systems by themselves are fine, and it's going to create a product that works. But I think the best ones really scale with soul. And you can tell, uh, that someone has put a lot of time and intention behind the micro copy of a button. I think those things, if you're intentional about thinking through all of those things, you're gonna be in, in good shape.

[Bill Kenney]

And it might be that Apple's the prime example of all of this, honestly. It just works. It's frustrating if a headphone set, uh, AirPods or, or these monsters, if they don't pair because of the expectations we have of their product.

These things just literally. They just work. It is that ease of use that allowed them to hit the mainstream in the way that they did and go from back in like my day anyways, it was like art school kid computer, not a mainstream person computer.

As everybody realized, like they just work, they're super intuitive and they're made for general computer users. It absorbed the entire market and then the phone obviously went a huge leap forward from that.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

I think the entire team should be part of an exercise where you're asking like, does this particular piece of functionality or this page on our website reflect our values?

Like, does the tone match throughout all of these? I'm trying to think of an example. Um, I love Headspace. Headspace, like a great illustration system, great brand, great content, but they don't just teach meditation or, uh, what I love it for is going to sleep, um, when I'm trying to catch up on sleep debt.

They've put so much effort and love into it where the product itself is meditation. Like there are slow fades, there's gentle sound. There's no sudden alerts or popups like I feel like that's the brand stewardship and user experience form. Um, but yeah, shout out to Headspace. They're doing wonderful things.

[Bill Kenney]

You pulled out a good one there. I completely agree. I love the way you put it, which is they're not delivering. Meditation, like they are meditation. They're literally embracing it at such a level that it accounts for everything. Now, there's gonna be some people here that are like, yeah, that's cool, but like I have a B2B, highly technical data aggregate software solution, right?

It's like there's something in there, don't discredit yourself. There's something in there that is still uniquely the organization, either at the founding level or what the customers have come to kind of perceive you as.

And that's worth sitting with and going back to the point of like getting some people in the organization around the table, that's one of the most valuable things that we do at Focus Lab.

Focus Lab is what it is today from a user experience perspective and as a brand because of the team. A thousand percent because of the ideas that they bring to the table, the areas where they see process for improvement, and they are running it through a version of the, this is who we say we are, right? This is who we're supposed to be. We should be doing this other thing that we're not doing. Or, challenging client situations, how do we show up for that? We have to show up in the way that we've promised as a brand. That we're gonna meet our clients at their hardest challenges, and we're gonna be there as a shepherd on that journey, not just as a vendor that's like, oh, that's your problem.

So like, uh, let us know when you fix it and we'll get back to work. Right?

I think what founders might realize is like you sit a couple people around, you say like, how can we make the onboarding experience better? And you have anybody in your team as a part of that, irrelevant of their department, you're gonna get some really cool ideas.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Absolutely.

[Bill Kenney]

Who knows what apps other people are using, software people are using, what they might be thinking about, how they are creative, even if they're not in a creative department.

This is not just the founder marketing and engineer's job to solve, source the company.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Yeah. I totally agree. Ping the EA ping, ping the janitor, like, these are people who use products day in, day out, just like the rest of us. They're not as close to it and nerdy as you and I, Bill, but they bring some incredible insights, um, if you give them the opportunity and space to do so.

[Bill Kenney]

That's it. Yep. And what do you have to risk, right? You set a one hour meeting once a quarter, and if no great ideas come out, that's fine.

It’s not meant to save the organization. It's just meant to create a space where these things are thought about. Every once in a while, you're gonna get some gems and you're gonna be like, we need to implement that, like as soon as possible. I love that idea. Yay.

All right, let's do this. Let's segue into the next episode. So we spent the first episode talking about, do these two worlds live together, or do they more often live apart?

This episode was more about what are tangible examples of companies doing it well, and how might a startup founder start to think and act in some of these ways through onboarding and these, uh, small interactions.

In the next episode, you and I are just gonna speak freely and theorize, put bets on maybe where this world is going, how will products continue to evolve? Will everybody be like Apple? Will those still be only a small fraction of the software solutions that feel that intuitive and easy to use? How will AI play into that equation? How will the next generation of builders come up and what are they trying to build, you know? And maybe you and I are starting to see some of that.

And maybe we are considered older, but like the next generation below us only knows products like Apple, right? So they're gonna emulate that more than say, we might have known Nintendo NES and like, you know, whether we're, what were the user experiences like trying to get through things like that. Old school MS-DOS, like logging into your computer. Exactly. Right. So maybe what we're professing now is actually the norm and the next generation will just build that way. I don't know. Let's talk about that.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

I love it.

[Bill Kenney]

And AI of course. AI, AI, AI. What the hell is that gonna do? Can it just go over the top and do that work? Do we expect it to? Is it gonna take our jobs? I don't know. Final one, we'll celebrate, and then we will have placed our bets on where the market's going and it will live out there and we'll come back to it in 10 years and we'll do the Gary V. You know Gary V.?

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Oh yeah.

[Bill Kenney]

He puts out so much content that now he can go back and be like, I talked about that 10 years ago, and I told everybody this is where it was going, and now he can be like “I’m smart.”

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Told you.

[Bill Kenney]

We may or may not be able to do that. We'll find out. It's like our time capsule.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Yeah. That being said, uh, Pacers in five. We'll see.

[Bill Kenney]

Yes. Correct. I'll start rooting for the Pacers. You've tipped my scale.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

But no, I'm pumped to talk about the future with you. It's gonna be fun.

[Bill Kenney]

All right, sir. Till next time, go get your sleep.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Yeah I appreciate it, Bill.

[Bill Kenney]

Ciao.