The Future of Brand and User Experience

In the final episode of our Brand and Product series, Bill Kenney (Focus Lab) and Lee Eisenbarth (MaxQ) look ahead: What does the future hold for brand in a world shaped by evolving user expectations and AI tools?

From kids swiping TikTok to professionals navigating enterprise software, the bar for user experience is higher than ever. So how does brand show up — not just in how things look, but in how they feel?

This episode dives into:

• Why younger generations will force brands to prioritize experience inside products
• What Apple teaches us about branding beyond visuals
• How AI is changing creative work — and where humans still hold the edge
• One mindset shift every founder should make about brand and product
• And so much more!

No matter where you are in your product journey, this is your reminder: UX is your brand. ✅

Whether you’re a founder, product, or brand leader, this conversation will challenge how you think about the emotional resonance of brand, and its vital role in the future products we build.

Episode Resources

• Learn more about MaxQ
• "Brand Isn't the Frosting. It's the Framework." (Article by Lee Eisenbarth)
• Connect with Lee on LinkedIn

Full Transcript

[Lee Eisenbarth]

AI is going to speed all of us up, and brand will kind of slow down in the best way. I know AI is not there yet, for logo generation, or subtle animations. So, I feel like, us as humans, we have to create that emotional resonance knowing that delight isn't necessarily the same thing as efficiency.

[Bill Kenney]

Hey everyone. This is Bill Kenney, CEO and co-founder of Focus Lab, a global B2B brand agency. I'm back with the final episode of this three part series where Lee Eisenbarth and I sit down and talk about brand and product, the overlap, or lack of, between the two. We are discussing a world where brand and product are often two separate entities.

Product is built, brand is then bolted on, or brand is built and product is kind of stuffed into that. They should be one. So we argued that for two whole episodes. In this episode, now we project into the future though. So what is coming in this world of branded product? What happens when Lee's child who's five months old gets older and starts to use apps like my son uses: TikTok, Snapchat, and they get used to the interactions and they branded interactions within these applications.

And then they go out in a B2B world and they use software like HubSpot and Salesforce, right? Where you feel the gap. It just feels like a clunky tool. It doesn't feel like a branded tool. Branded is more than just colors, right? It's how it works.

It's how it feels. So we talk about micro interactions. We also, of course, get into AI. How will AI shift this world of brand and product coming together? We get on a little bit of a soapbox. Yeah, maybe we're being protective of our creative industry. It was a very valuable conversation, and I'm excited to share it with you all now.

[Bill Kenney]

All right, sir, we're back again, episode three, it's a Friday. We're talking brand and product and how those two worlds come together. In the first episode, we talked about the gap that exists where some people, let's call it founders, software builders, don't understand that brand and products are a single unit.

It's not one in the other. Episode two, we attempted to pretend like that founder is in the room with us, and we were talking about the ways that they could literally add branded moments to product and start to bring these two worlds together.

We talked about a lot of product examples to the Duolingo of the world and Notion and um, more than I can remember. Today, we're going to try to project forward. Now we're gonna dream a little bit, we're gonna think future forward of like, where is the world going in this regard? Because I think, and I believe you think it's moving there fast.

Not just because of AI, but AI is gonna be a part of the conversation today, but it's moving there fast because of the key components and interactions that people use today. My in-laws currently in my house right now, 70 years old, both iPhone users. Apple is setting an example of brand and user experience in product that they now think is normal.

They expect everything to operate that way. And it often doesn't, especially new tech. So we're gonna try to close that gap a little bit too and try to forecast maybe how companies are gonna continue to close that gap so everything can feel Apple-esque.

Go Apple. So let's get into it. Let's get into it. Let's get into it. Users now expect these, like Grade A experiences from their product. Brand plays a critical role in that. It's not just, ooh, that button is smooth and operates well. That's actually like a branded decision.

How else, or I guess maybe I would say like how do you think companies are gonna continue to try to put those two worlds together?

[Lee Eisenbarth]

I think going back to your point about your in-laws being in your house, Godspeed to you, um.

[Bill Kenney]

They don’t live here to be clear. They're just here right now and I love them.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

I love my in-laws too. So, it's not just like 70 year olds that are expecting this. Like we have the two largest generations that are becoming more and more tech savvy. And so you've got geriatric millennials like myself, and you've got a lot of Gen Z folks who are on TikTok every single day.

[Bill Kenney]

Great point.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

So if they're using that app and it's super slick and beautiful, and then you go to something else, like, like, you're right, the bar has already been set, and while B2B users used to tolerate really clunky, beige things, today, it's a higher bar and it needs to feel like, uh, a Spotify or onboard like Duolingo.

[Bill Kenney]

Thank you for saying that because where I thought you were gonna go with it, and you were, and I'll just take it a little bit further, is, um, even all the way down to our children. So my son is 15, but you've got a five month old, is that right? So at some point you're gonna start to loosen up on the, like less screen time, no devices.

But devices are gonna be in their hands earlier and earlier, right? So now you're, we talked about the one side of the spectrum that is all the way to the elderly. Now, yes, you've got like the youngest, newest, freshest generation coming in and seeing the newest, freshest apps experiences.

I think about Snapchat for my son, the funky interactions and the usability of that app. I suspect there are things in there that I wouldn't know how to get to or how to know how to do, but he does. He's been in the app long enough. Those start to become expected behaviors. So what happens when he gets into the workforce and starts to use a tool like, oh boy, should I say it? HubSpot, right? Or a Salesforce, right?

And he is like, man, this feels robotic, old school, clunky.

Those companies are gonna have to kind of meet the customer where they are in software usability expectations.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

100%. I think B2B isn't the exception to good design anymore, it’s just late to the party.

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah, for sure.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Whether you're 70 or five months old, or five years old, you are still a consumer. And if you are working a normal job, maybe Monday morning you're logging into procurement software, but that same night you're scrolling TikTok. And if the bar doesn't reset between those use cases it's not a good thing. And so because people expect immediacy, clarity, delight, even from really complex tools like HubSpot and Salesforce.

If you don't meet that standard of, these consumer grade apps, like someone else will.

[Bill Kenney]

Do you think this new generation with it being so normal, and I wouldn't even bucket us into that. I know we're on the elder side of it, but like, it's so normal that they become now the builders of the future, so we will start to see it more because they're not gonna operate a different way.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Yeah, absolutely. I think this next generation has so many tools at their disposal, but what will change, the outcomes of whatever it is they're producing, are things like brand and experience.

I think that's where it takes that, like technical depth of an application and it actually turns it into something that humans can consume, and humans will always need to be within that feedback loop. But yeah, I think this next generation, just like ours, had the opportunity to see Google come to fruition, the personal computer come to fruition, and it leveled the playing field.

And in many ways, AI is doing a similar disruption where everyone has access to everything, any piece of knowledge you need. If you wanna learn how to do anything in the world. You can do it.

And so we've gotta find a way to use those tools to be an accelerator and I think this next generation is going to do it well.

[Bill Kenney]

I can't help but think about, and I only thought about this in the moment, I don't know that the exact right context. But, talk about a user experience and a usability shift, when Apple, again, came along and said, well, we don't need buttons on a phone to be able to press to achieve the same thing. We can just have a flat screen.

It could be a touchable surface, right? That's a branded experience at that point. It's not just saying, well, it's just a tool, I don't care how I get to the outcome I want, which is a call, I just get to the call. It's like, no. Like they thought about the entire experience on the call and said, actually, we want more real estate on a screen 'cause that's more important.

And now that's just literally the norm, a button on a phone would be super weird.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Yeah. Uh, I read a book a while back, I wish I remembered the title, but it was about this guy who interned at Apple and Jony Ive came in and spoke to this team. And he was talking about the granular level of detail Apple went to to create that very first iPhone box.

And I forget if it was like seven seconds or 12 seconds, but if you still have one in your closet, I know some people who are listening have hordes of apple boxes and are afraid to throw 'em away. But that's by design. It's too beautiful to put in the recycling bin.

But anyways, back to the lid. If you put the lid on top of the box, and you should go check this after the episode, but it should take, let's call it seven seconds to slowly slide down and create this fit.

And so, like, not only the product inside, the iPhone itself with its skew-morphic design that felt real and was that like translation of, hey, things are changing. We're gonna give you a little bit, um, with making this notebook actually look like a leather bound notebook and have some texture to it, to the packaging itself. All of it is, is brand and it's, it's how, how it makes sense before it makes sense.

So I, I don't know. I could harp on Apple all day. I feel like those in early days, their approach to disruption, really changed things. And in many ways, it's going to continue to have ripple effects, like Jony Ive joining OpenAI’s crew.

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah, there you go. They're saying for the first tangible, like actual, like AI hardware, that might not, that might come out now in a beautifully experienced way. Like we haven't, we haven't seen that yet, right?

We've, we're seeing LLMs and AI tools everywhere now, but what happens when it starts to like, make it into your life like a phone? Or headphones or glasses and I don't know, we'll know in a couple years I bet.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

I think we're in the new frontier, like we don't know what we don't know. There have been so many advancements, even with ChatGPT over the last year. New models being rolled out, competitors popping up and causing X AI to make their models stronger, better, faster.

Like it's gonna be a weird next couple of years, just in general, but specifically for creatives there's gonna be so many new tools. And the creatives and the humans that have the learner's mindset, those are going to be the ones who prevail.

[Bill Kenney]

Yes. Hallelujah. So let's go there. The human advantage in an AI assisted world as AI accelerates design and development, brand will be one of the few remaining differentiators rooted in emotion and meaning. So as AI speeds everything up, where does human creativity and brand find a home and where is it still delivering value? Let's talk about that.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

I love it. I feel like in a world of AI, your humanity is your moat and all of these AI tools will need a talented human on the other side to tell it what to do and even to program these devices, these things we don't even know about yet.

Right now though, AI is going to speed all of us up and brand will kind of slow down, in the best way. You have to follow a certain process. Like I know AI is not there yet for logo generation, or even creating subtle animations. But you still need a human to do that, to do the 50 sketches, to present the material to the client. And so I feel like us as humans, like we have to create that emotional resonance and knowing delight isn't necessarily the same thing as efficiency.

And so, AI can replicate tone, we've talked about it, but like it can't invent one that resonates at a soul level. It'll spin up 17 product concepts overnight, but it won't know why it matters or, the why behind everything.

[Bill Kenney]

Yep. Well said. That's our zone to keep and to own, as you said earlier. I was asked yesterday, I was doing a presentation to a group of creatives later in their career, like they're starting to build their agency, right, in that stage. And their question was, ai, right? Like, you know, do you think it's coming for our jobs?

And I'm like, quite honestly, I feel like, I don't know, unmoved, by the topic right now. I know it's moving fast, but I feel unmoved from a scared perspective. I don't feel nervous, right? Like I understand what these projects are like to have to go through human to human, they're very emotional, branding projects, right? You have to be able to read the room and the current dynamic.

You have to be able to interact in a way that is very human and shape shifts to the degrees and the temperatures of the room and all these things, right? Like these things take time. People can't just prompt their way to a solution. But yes, and from a technical perspective, things that need to be built in the background that are not rooted in emotion, AI speeds those things up massively.

It also speeds up our work, but I guess what I'm saying is it's like it's not gonna take it, and I think you've said that more eloquently. You know, that's still ours to own, and that becomes more valuable, right? In an ideal world, we might look back and go like, wow, that actually helped us in just about every way and only inflicted a little bit of pain into our business models or something like that.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

The first use case that really comes to mind is like content and blogs. Like AI, sure it can spit out a blog, but with everyone having the ability to spit out AI blogs, like the cadence, the tone, like it's all going to be just noise.

Where you can have signal is when you have a really great copywriter who is thinking multiple steps ahead of how to connect the dots within a piece. And so I think if we can view AI as an enhancer to our day to day and use it to get those first drafts so the second and third come significantly faster, that's the golden ticket.

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Like right now, literally you could create GPTs to create all the content you want and basically spit it out. But like who's doing that? It's almost like we never even got to the point that people are gonna do it and create all that noise because I think everybody can already see the writing on the wall.

They all still feel like, well that doesn't exactly sound like me. So I'm definitely gonna have to do a lot of work here. I don't use it to create much content at all, but I could, and maybe it would do mostly good, but like, just because it can doesn't mean we will maybe, is kind of the vibe maybe that I'm picking up on here.

Like a lot of companies could start using it for that, but they don't because they already see. What we just talked about. It's gonna be generic, it's gonna be lifeless. So at that point, what are you creating then? So then you walk all the way back from that.

It'll be interesting to see in what other areas people come to the same conclusion. Oh, it can do that, but I'm not gonna use it to do that because if I do that then blah blah blah. And then what we will actually use it for, what I use it for sometimes, like if I write a big piece and I feel like I can't come up with something witty, what would be more of like a creative copywriter opening, or sentence, a single sentence.

Create me a wittier start to this thing because I've got stuck into just the weeds of the tactical. So it's like those things that I use it for like a thought partner, and it becomes valuable. It'll get you unstuck, but it won't take you all the way home.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Yeah, and that's the way it should be. It should be a thought partner. You should ask, Hey, why is this a bad idea? If you’re getting ready to make a big decision. But, back to the content piece, like you have a great LinkedIn presence, and of all of the things that I see in my LinkedIn feed, they're all the same.

[Bill Kenney]

Sure, yeah.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

If you look at the cadence of them, there was like a big, big mess about the em dash. Um, I had some fun with that and actually tapped into my middle school language arts teacher. Shout out, Ms. G. And she was like, yeah, absolutely people should be using the em dash. And no, it doesn't mean that your copy was written by GPT. But I feel like the humans creating content and putting time and brain muscle power into it, will stand out, will prevail, um, in this weird, everything AI touches world.

[Bill Kenney]

Two thoughts on that. There's gonna be, in my opinion, more value on the imperfection. Because the imperfection is gonna signal human, right? We don't need to have these little tags at the bottom like, a human wrote this. There's gonna be like, oh, Bill misspells that word all the time, he must have, he must have written that, or he missed a comma here, or, you know, poor usage of that word.

These things make it real. In a world where maybe things start to feel less and less real, that might become more identifiable and um, kind of attractive. So we do these hot sauces, custom hot sauce for our clients, and we send it at the end of every project.

And we have sauce, we have these patches that look like a ketchup splatter, and it says sauce. And on the back it talks about “seeking to achieve an unforgettable customer experience” — the acronym, if people didn't put that together, of sauce. I was gonna post a really nice image of it and I was gonna talk about why we care about that and use the patch as the image in the post.

And it's a really well done photograph that Liz on our team took, and I put it in the post and it looked so good and so clean because it was a professional photograph that had been edited and retouched so that it looked fake. Back in the day, that would've been like, that's a badass photo, because it would've looked better than 99% of the images.

Now the feeds are all filled with things that are seemingly high quality maybe, but they look perfect. So I actually, interestingly enough, I just went and got the patch that I had at my house, took a quick like iPhone photo of it, intentionally imperfect, has my hand in it and it's like, oh, that's like a real photo of him holding the real patch, which then inspired another post of like, that is so damn interesting to me.

The psychological break for my brain, of like, I used to have such a hunger for these like awesome photo shoots we would do on any product we had where we made a tangible version of the logo we created or this system. And now I'm like, oh, I, I actually want to take a crappy photo on purpose so people know it's real.

That's kind of a weird setup and I've gone through now that whole mental journey.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

You shouldn't be punished for being a good photographer, Liz.

[Bill Kenney]

Yes, I know. She's like, great. I spent a lot of time making that photo. I'm like, I know, but.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

I think it's gonna be weird. Do you think there are going to be creatives that get called out by clients of, this is too polished.

[Bill Kenney]

Is this real?

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Did you actually make this?

[Bill Kenney]

It seems to me like somebody somewhere would say that. If I'm literally thinking that, knowing what I know, then I don't know how a client who's, well, let's call it like the other side of the fence receiving things might think like, was this made in that way? We have clients, and I don't remember if we said this in the past episode, but we, we actually have an active client right now when they came into the project, they had a demand that AI would not be used on their project at all. It was more about the trademark legal issues, because it's a very large company.

But like that language is now in the lexicon of like, hey. I don't, I don't know how you may or may not be using it, but we wanna make it clear in our contract you are not allowed to.

Other clients maybe are earlier on that learning curve, and they don't think to ask that, or maybe they don't care. You know, speed is their friend, maybe they would prefer it to be used. But customers they're entering that headspace now, how do we feel about AI being used to determine outcomes on our project?

[Lee Eisenbarth]

It's more than a blog too. I feel like you're going to have, like during COVID and everyone had like a COVID-19 center on their site. There's going to be, what do you think about AI? How do you use it?

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah. There's gonna be a stance, like the moral stance on AI. Yep.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

And it needs to be public because if it’s not then it looks like you're hiding something.

[Bill Kenney]

Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting. It's an interesting thing to have to take a public stance on.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

The future's weird, Bill!

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah, the future is weird.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

I didn't think the conversation was going this direction, but like, I really am. Like, I don't know what's going to happen. I know creatives will always have a job. Talented people, uh, like Liz, like Shannon will always have value at a business.

It's just gonna be interesting to see, will some of our coworkers become AI agents?

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah. It seems that way. Yes. That's also a great question to ask. Yes.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

I think it depends on how you run your organization and what the leadership team thinks.

[Bill Kenney]

So we did, we did some of this in the last talk, but let's go there again because I think it's worthwhile. Thinking about the future and kind of pulling on the thread that we pulled on earlier, which is like how brand shows up in product and the future, the elder generations, the new generations, they all have an expectation of how these things will show up.

So what are some examples? What are some more examples you think of how that might continue to show up in new and different ways within a product.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Yeah, I think brand used to live on billboards and then it translated over to like websites but like now I really feel like it is in the tool tips, the transitions, and those micro moments that barely last a second.

But they get remembered forever and end up getting talked about on a podcast with Lee and Bill. But when I think of the next frontier of brand expression and products, I really view both micro interactions and personalization as being big ones. I think animation could also be looped in there, but I also think it's in the places people don't really expect brand to be.

I know in the second episode we talked a lot about 404 pages.

I think error states, or even success messages, those toasts that come in, can be a really great canvas to express your brand in a product. And then, when I think through examples, uh, Loom and some of their celebratory moments after you share a video, like that, that makes an impact, that's special.

And on the consumer end, whoever is watching that Loom video, they have the ability to emote, and that is an extension, and an expression, of Looms brand.

I talked about Headspace. I love Headspace. Um, not promoted whatsoever, but if you look from a brand perspective, like at their tone across their micro-UX copy, how they talk on their websites, even just the behavioral design in app. That's how brand expresses itself in a product.

[Bill Kenney]

That's it. Yeah.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

I think the best brands of the future, they're not gonna shout. They're gonna whisper and be consistent and they're going to be clever, and that could be like in Headspace's case, thoughtful use of illustration and a really solid user experience. It could mean something completely different, but I feel like the group listening to this, who gives a damn, needs to know where it counts to have those branded moments.

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah, the word clever resonates with me a lot because clever would imply it's well thought out. It's intentional. It should be on brand and it's maybe small, when I think of clever. Not everything's clever, but there are moments of clever. I think about it probably because I just got it today.

The automated email that comes from Gusto, which is payroll for us at Focus Lab, that automated email comes through and it's basically like you got paid today. And that could just be a very generic, simple email template, but at the top of the email there's an illustration that's animated.

It used to be like the orange peeling one, I think was one of them, but now more often it's the cat walking between the owner's legs and like being affectionate in the illustration. And it's just kind of like it has a vibe and it's so, it's so them and I think it's in the clever bucket.

It's not trying too hard. They just know there's a moment to make this not just about dollars, that they wanna bring the brand and create an experience that's just a little bit more enjoyable, just a little bit. It doesn't take that much work to have that moment illustrated and then animated and put it at the top.

And here I am in a podcast talking about it, right? Like we could be using any payroll service and I suspect that 90% or more, it's gonna be a generic template with numbers prefilled into it to say “You made X this week”. They really go the extra mile, Gusto does. That startup is damn big now. And I would say like, why?

Why when other tools can do the same thing, why do they continue to grow and get market share? Because if we have the choice for five different payroll services, that one seems to align more with who we are at Focus Lab.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

I agree with you completely, and I love seeing those animations each week and they change, for those who don't get Gusto emails. But I do think brand is going to live in those smallest moments. Whether it's what used to be a transactional email, it is now a brand touchpoint, and it doesn't matter how big or small the touch point is, like the more specific you can get, the more delight you can inject into it. That will only speak well to your brand.

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah, you keep on using that word, and I think it is the exact right word. It's moments of delight. Like anybody listening to all three episodes, if they just took this one section. It's like, just look for more opportunities of moments of delight. They can be big, they can be small, but if that becomes like a, Hey, we haven't talked about moments of delight in a couple months.

Maybe we gotta find a couple more of those and to the people that are listening and watching that say like, that's just not our vibe. That wouldn't be on brand for us to have a cat affectionately walking between the owner's legs. Okay. Figure out what is on brand for you and what Lee and I have been preaching almost the entire episode is like the whole world expects it now.

So, you're gonna wanna be there. You're gonna wanna figure out what your version of that delight is. You don't have to be a warm, fuzzy, heart on our sleeve software company to create moments of delight. You can still create them, because at the end of the day your customers are human. If you're a serious, we build spy cyberware technology.

That's some serious shit, yeah, we get it. There's still a person behind that as the customer that has hobbies in their life that are not so serious. They still like to laugh at some shit, right? Like you can create moments of delight in a serious brand as well. And I think, you know, I think maybe that's where people maybe get caught up in the, well, that, that just feels right for that company.

I don't know where we would do it. Eh, that's a weak question and honestly feels like a cop out.

All right, Lee, final question, three episodes in, we've covered a lot of topics, so I'm gonna force you to pick one thing.

If you are sitting down and advising a founder today. In and around subjects we've talked about, which is like the importance of brand and product as one unit, what's one mindset shift you would recommend that they adopt?

[Lee Eisenbarth]

There's so many, I think being proactive and build a brand as part of the infrastructure and not just a bolt-on or icing on the cake. I think that's number one. And I think I talked a lot about that in the first episode.

I think too, just like marketing is everyone's job at a business, brand is too. And the more Brand Leads, the more stakeholders we can have that get rolled into product sprints. And it doesn't matter if it's a SaaS product. I know this audience is primarily B2B SaaS, but like it could be a physical product as well.

But having multiple stakeholders, those people are also users, and they will have a perspective.

And so, if you're a co-founder, be thinking about these things, and I think if you create brand systems that evolve with your product as it grows, and not just treat it like a logo that goes on the corner, you're gonna be set.

Like one, one quick example that comes to mind for, for a co-founder to just copy is Stripe. Like if you look at their product, you look at their brands, you look at their support documentation, it's all the same voice. It's all the same ethos. I feel like if you can do that, replicate that, or even part of that, you’re going to be ahead of the majority of brands.

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah, it doesn't take much to get ahead of the competition in that way, you're right. So seize that as a golden opportunity, as a wide open landscape. You could just go and have it. Fun fact about Stripe, I saw one of the co-founders speak like 10 years ago when they were very small.

I think it was about 10 years ago at a design conference. Shout out to Drew. Valio Con was the conference. And now that I think about that, he was very technical, what they were building was extremely technical and he was speaking at a design conference, right?

So they were thinking about design, product, experience within their product, from day one. Talk about a successful company. Holy shit. So there you go. Uh, thank you Lee. Before we jump out, you wanna tell people where they can find you and follow you and all your wonderful perspectives.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

Yeah. of course, uh, if you wanna see my five month old son, you can follow me @leeeisenbarth. My name hopefully will be in the description.

Tessa the good girl. That's my puppy. Uh, she also has an Instagram. But no, I run the design practice at MaxQ, so you can find me at GoMaxQ.com. And just a refresher, if you didn't watch episode one, we're an AI native acceleration partner, built for the highest pressure moments for SaaS. So think of big product launches, funding rounds, acquisitions, name it. But yeah, that's where to find me. Yeah.

[Bill Kenney]

That's it. Go follow Lee. Thanks for joining. Show and I'll see you out there.

[Lee Eisenbarth]

See you, Bill. Thank you so much.