MessageGears Rebrand

In our latest episode of The Debrief, we're sitting down with MessageGears VP of Marketing, Will Devlin. After 10 years with the same logo, the MessageGears team's rebrand mantra was "anywhere but here" — and their rebrand project benefited greatly from that mindset.

Will and Bill touch on so many important topics such as:

• The inflection point for the MessageGears rebrand
• The challenge of the unknown when entering a brand project
• The benefits of setting expectations when committing to something new
• The importance of a strong strategy in a rebrand
• And so much more!

You won't want to miss this episode. Will and his team were a highlight of our year and being able to debrief with him was the cherry on top!

Episode Resources

• MessageGears <> Focus Lab Case Study
• Debrief Episode with Sydney Sloan, Former CMO of Salesforce
• More Information on Conquer Your Rebrand

Full Transcript

[Bill Kenney]

You know, when you're wearing clothes that maybe you've had for a while, 10 years to be exact, and they just don't seem to fit the vibe anymore? You're like, I don't know if this is me. Maybe it was back then. Maybe it wasn't, and I'm still wearing it and it feels off. That was the exact position our partner, Will Devlin, was in.

It just wasn't his clothes. It was the brand of MessageGears that he leads as the Head of Marketing. 10 years in, no real effort on brand identity. And as he says in the interview, they basically got their money's worth and rode that thing into the ground. So we talk about basically the catalyst of knowing when it was time to rebrand, uh, what it was like finding the right partner.

Pro tip: It's more about the people than the pixels. We get into that. Uh, we talk about the challenges in the project, which are not necessarily challenges, but kind of the unknowns of, I know I need new clothes, a la, brand identity. Yeah. But I don't know what it is in my mind. I know we need it. So there's a lot of fear baked into that feeling, um, with these types of unknowns.

We talked through that and what that was like for them. Then we get into what was most rewarding. Will calls out the journey itself. Very stoic. Well done. Will. Uh, and then we get into his final tip on what he would tell anybody, peer friend, founder, What's the one most important thing they should care about when going on their own rebrand journey. A wonderful episode with Will Devlin, a wonderful partner in MessageGears. I hope you enjoy.

[Bill Kenney]

All right. Mr. Devlin. Excited to chat with you today. Um, we had some fun working together on the MessageGears rebrand. But before we get into all of that, I'm going to pass you the mic. You can introduce yourself and tell people what you do, where you're doing it, all that type of stuff.

[Will Devlin]

Yeah. Thanks, Bill. Appreciate you having me on. It's exciting to be here. Exciting to be a part of this project. Um, my name is Will. I'm the Vice President of Marketing at MessageGears. A place where I've been for the last 10 years, uh, just crossed that milestone on Sunday this past week.

[Bill Kenney]

Congrats.

[Will Devlin]

Thank you. But we're based here in Atlanta. I've been here in Atlanta for about 13 years now, I've been in the marketing space my entire life, the last 15 years on the MarTech side. But prior to that on the brand side, and, uh, I love what I do. I love this. I love this business.

[Bill Kenney]

It showed it was, um, you know, I, I would speak highly of all of our partners, but you all had a special flavor to you. You were just such great humans. So kudos to you.

[Will Devlin]

So the check cleared. That's good to know. Yeah. Um, yeah.

[Bill Kenney]

It also cleared on Sunday. Sunday was a big day. Yeah.

[Will Devlin]

Sunday, Sunday was just a great day for everything. Yeah, I think that if you are doing something, you should try to love it as much as you can. And if you don't enjoy it, then you should get into something else.

And so I try to find people around us that work the same way and have the same mindset.

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah, and that creates some awesome harmony, especially on a project like this, which brand projects are, let's be real. They are not easy. They're long. They can be arduous and both like just opinions and, signing off on things. Maybe even frustrating at many points, uh, and we'll talk about those things. So, before we get into the actual project itself, and the reason that we record these episodes, it's really not to highlight our work necessarily, that's kind of the outcome.

Uh, we want people to learn from people like you. Your peers, if you will, so that they can understand from your perspective on how did you get into this process? How did you know it was time to act on it? What was that like? How did you find the right partner? And then we'll get into the project and we'll get into the meat of the project.

So that's going to lead me into my first question, which is how did you know it was time to actually bite off a project like this?

[Will Devlin]

I've been arguing it, or arguing for it for a number of years. We're a small player selling something unique and innovative and different to really large enterprise brands. We are a marketing technology company. Um, and so we're, we're in a crowded space. We're in a well established space. And the brand that we had didn't match the tone or the excitement of what we're selling and didn't represent who we were and never felt like it was, it was truly ours.

And there was also just the absence of any real cohesiveness. You know, we looked at the indicators. You know, they're actually in your book, not to plug your book, but, uh, but you know, they matched up perfectly with our situation, right? We were at an inflection point, our brand needed to evolve with us.

Our brand decisions didn't have any direction. They were very reactive. It was just messy. There was not a lot of consistency and we're in a space that's very crowded and there's a lot of confusion and we were just blending in look and feel. And certainly with our messaging. Um, so nothing felt like ownable for us.

I listened to, um, Sydney Sloan and she talked on this podcast about the Salesloft rebrand. And she, you know, we, we were in a similar boat where we had gotten, we'd gotten our money's worth out of that $50 logo we had purchased 15 years ago. And we just rode that thing into the ground and she was a good ship, but, but we were, you know, it's just, we're past our prime there.

And so, things, you know, we have very low brand recognition and not a lot of brand equity in the space. Those that do know about us, love us, but you know, it's not the hallmark of a great business if you're just the best kept secret for years and years and years.

[Bill Kenney]

Well said.

[Will Devlin]

Right, so it just, it felt like time

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah. Okay. And how much time had passed? I mean, when we were working with you, I was at the startup brand that you literally rode into the ground.

[Will Devlin]

That is, that is it. Yeah. So we had that, uh, that logo and brand, if you will. Um, you know, if you want to call it that, but for 13 years, 14 years, um, you know, again, it started with just the logo. I joined in 2014. That was the marketing asset that MessageGears had at the time, um, the logo.

Um, and so, you know, we, we did some internal, like, hey, let's over the years, like, we'll brand refresh, right? But we never did a formal, formal process. We never work with experts. Um, you know, we never really did a full project on it. Never put a lot of money and effort into it and it was, it was past time.

[Bill Kenney]

But then you have the monumental task of finding the right partner now, right? Okay. We know we need it. You've been fighting for it for a while, but then you're like, well, who do we work with? What are we looking for?

What matters to us? The size of the companies vary wildly. The costs of the projects vary wildly. There's no kind of staple that you're like, okay, I need this and it should fall within this ballpark. So like, what do you do? Like, what was your, what was your search like? What was that hunt?

[Will Devlin]

Yeah, I mean, a lot of it was word of mouth. We knew we wanted expertise in the tech space. And, you know, if we found somebody that had worked with a competitor or a partner of ours, that would be great, you know? So, there was some like, who did so and so use for their like, you know, very, very pointed searches that way.

And then, um, you know, talking to people throughout the industry, or different peers of mine that had, you know, who should I go to? Who should I talk to? Uh, you know, the hallmarks of who we're looking for though were expertise in the space, high quality of work, obviously is a big, a big deal for us. And just trust and honesty.

You can get caught in this trap of finding somebody that tells you what you want to hear, and then you're not going to get the, you're not going to get pushed to do something great. So, um, you know, as we were evaluating agencies, and certainly we're in talks with y'all.

What we really liked about it was, it was not a lot of sugarcoating of things and it wasn't in a, obviously in a mean way, um, you guys are experts at this, but the team came back and said, yeah, your, your current brand is, you know, they were using words like generic and forgettable and safe. Um, and that's not what a company that aspires to be high growth and that wants brand recognition. You don't want those qualities to necessarily be the things that are standing out.

Um, you know, I joked at, at a company, all hands, that's maybe something that you want, uh, in thinking about somebody, your daughter might date, but not for a high growth company. Um, And so, you know, we had a good rapport and a good feeling there when we were getting that honest feedback, uh, in a way that felt helpful, right?

It wasn't like, oh, you know, you guys have a great brand today and we can improve upon it. It was like, yeah, I can see where you're coming from. I can see why you're not happy with this. I appreciated that and ultimately just, you know, the quality of the people and the quality of the work stood out the most.

Um, and it was feeling like cool, we will work well with this group and they will push us in what could be a very, you know, you mentioned at the outset of, you know, there's a lot of opinions going back and forth. It could be contentious. There's a lot of, you know, voices in the room that want to be the loudest and want to be right.

And so we had to find somebody that was comfortable and had experience managing all that.

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah. Yeah. Well said, it's that last point that I think people might overlook or underestimate the importance of who's going to navigate the journey with you through all that hard stuff. You know, you'd mentioned the quality of work is important. Yes, I agree. And you even mentioned in a way, which I'm going to now say, um, more clearly, which is like, that's kind of like the table stakes at this point.

Right. For a company where you're at and now it's time to do it right. The quality has to be there, right? That's kind of like, okay, that's the first box. Check it out of the way. Now, what type of people can go on this journey with us? That is something that we spend a lot of time and energy on. Is being that journey person right to go along on that journey and to help somebody on that journey. It's not just about the pixels. It's not just about the words. It's helping them navigate all the intangibles and the hard decisions and the people factors and all the planning and all this stuff.

There's so much logistics. Um, so I'm, I'm glad you valued that. And you certainly found the right people to go on that type of journey with you.

[Will Devlin]

100%. Yeah, it shows. Yeah, 100%.

[Bill Kenney]

Awesome. All right. So we get into the project. So you're like, okay, I think these are our people. I mean, let's be fair though. There's still question marks there, right? I guess like if, you know, talking to everybody that's listening, watching, you think you can read people on a sales call, you hope that those things are true.

Thankfully, your experience with us. It was true, but it's still a gamble, right? You don't know you're saying, okay, this is who we're going to go with. And now let's get into the project. So there's kind of, I love opening this section of the interviews because it's the double side of the coin. Even successful projects have challenge and it's worth talking about challenge.

Case studies say, look how great everything is. We're really proud. LinkedIn is to celebrate, right? Celebrating you all when you launch, but like, then there's the behind the scenes and it doesn't mean it's dramatic or there's controversy. But there is challenge. So my first question to you, what did you find most challenging in the project?

[Will Devlin]

Yeah, I think there's a couple things. I mean, the biggest thing for me was that we knew we needed, you know, all the signs were there that we needed to do something. We needed to do this and we had found the right partner, but we didn't know what we wanted. It's one of those things where you, um, You can picture the end result in your mind, but it's abstract.

It's in a dreamlike state. So you really can't see it. You can just feel like that. That's the thing I want. So we didn't know what that thing was. We just knew that we didn't want to be where we were. Um, you know, we didn't like what we had. We didn't want to be blending in. We didn't want something that was safe or expected.

Um, and we wanted something that felt representative of the company we had built, that we would be proud of. And we didn't know what the collection of that would look like. Um, and so that to me actually presented the biggest challenge and I know it's a little bit more of an abstract challenge overall, but the fact that we kind of came in the door and said, okay, help us change.

You know, and there were some assumptions we had made about things that we were going to keep or that we did like about our existing brand. I think one of the first things we said was our old logo and brand or company's name MessageGears. And our icon was a little gear of the things we were almost sure about going into this project.

It was like, yeah, we're definitely keeping the gear. We can build on this and modernize this in an iconic way. And, you know, there's not a gear anywhere to be found anymore. Right. But I think, so I think going into the project, there's just assumptions that we had that we would, this is what we would keep and how this is going to go.

But it really, I think the biggest challenge for me is that it was just sort of this open ended.

Okay, cool. Like, I don't know what we want. Like, I have no ideas. Seriously. Um, I just know what we have today isn't working. We don't stand out. I don't know what this should look like or sound like or feel like, but I know it can't feel the way it feels today.

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, uh, it reminds me of people back in the day, like moving out West, right? It's the new frontier. Like, or just an explorer leaving a country, going out into the ocean. He was like, I don't know where I'm going to land. I don't know what to expect, but I'm going to go on this journey and I can see how that would be very intimidating.

I'm on the other side of it so long now that it's hard for me to even imagine the counter. Right. I just, I know we're going to get there. So that's like a part of our job, right? To take people on that journey, like we said, and you know, that's where some of that early strategy work comes in. Even when we came to Atlanta, doing the onsite, talking about archetypes. And now these things start to bring clarity to these kind of dreamy unknown states, and then you build on top of that.

I didn't know that y'all were potentially intent on keeping the gear. Uh, yeah. And it's funny to think about that now. Right. You're like, no, I'm really glad we didn't keep the gear.

[Will Devlin]

There were some early sort of non-negotiables and that was, you know, not non negotiables, obviously, but things we felt pretty sure about, and I think that was just, um, you know, thinking back to the comment you made, about, you know, getting into this early before the brand you have becomes stale or old.

I do think one of the advantages of this project has been or was early on, which was we are so sick of this old thing and we don't like it and we like, really, you could have shown us anything and we would have been like, oh, my God. I mean, that's obviously not how it played out, but everything, everything that was a part of the project and all of the different options and potential paths you could go down felt new and fresh.

And that part was exciting.

[Bill Kenney]

I could see that.

[Will Devlin]

Even though we didn't, we didn't know again, we just didn't know where we wanted to go.

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah. Very cool. I, I think the, one of the things that brings me the most joy outside of a partner like you launching and now trying to really go on and bring that to life and, um, get return on that, quite frankly, um, is those early moments of like joy and excitement of like, Oh, Oh my God. Yeah. I don't know.

I just hadn't thought that maybe it would go this direction. I think I love this. I don't know. It makes me nervous though. You know, all of these types of very early reactions, uh, I enjoy watching that state.

[Will Devlin]

Yeah, I think that Focus Lab did a nice job and this goes back to selecting the right people that will work with you and push you. It was a good job of knowing those things were going to come right and setting our expectations well.

[Bill Kenney]

Yes.

[Will Devlin]

But I think, you know, constantly reminding us that what you're about to see is totally different and people have different reactions to things that are totally different, right?

You tend to retreat to your familiar safe places when presented with something that's totally radical, totally different. But remember, you guys came in the door and said you wanted something totally different. You hated where you were, anywhere but here was the mantra, right?

So like, um, that, um, that constant reminder is, you know, it was exciting, but it was, it was a little nerve wracking for sure. And then, you know, committing to one of these. different paths and then exploring where that path can lead. Again, very exciting, but also very, you know, it's nerve wracking and there's a lot of different voices in the room.

[Bill Kenney]

Hell yeah. And the commitment side. Right? I got to commit to this thing right now. Oh my God. This is, this is it. Is this going to be it? Yep.

[Will Devlin]

This could be it.

[Bill Kenney]

Can I put it out into the world and ask everybody if they love it? No, you can't do that. Will.

[Will Devlin]

Yeah.

[Bill Kenney]

I don't know how to react.

[Will Devlin]

Can I focus group this? Right.

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah, yeah. I remember even actually I was in one of those meetings now that I recall and we were talking about, uh, the 'M' that you all landed on, and there was other options that were very interesting and I just chimed in like, listen, I'm not trying to sway the group, but maybe you want my opinion, and I'm gonna make it very clear.

If it were me, I'd be picking this thing. The opportunity exists here. So do what you want with that. And I think y'all received that well you're like, shit, he sounds really confident about that. Maybe we should pick that.

[Will Devlin]

No, I want to, I want to tell you right now, personally, and I hope all of my colleagues are listening to this because your vote was backing my strong, we kind of allowed ourselves one die on the hill moment throughout the project, like each person. And that mark that we landed on, which is the ‘M' that you advocated for, was my die on the hill moment.

I was like, all of these things are great. There's different paths we can go down. This thing is, this direction I'm dying on this hill. There are other things I will cede, uh, control over, even if I don't love, but like this thing. And so then when you came on that one call and echo that I was just it was such sweet victory.

[Bill Kenney]

You're like, yes. And I didn't know that. Right. Like, I didn't know that you were prepared to die on that hill.

[Will Devlin]

And it was the right choice. I mean, and everybody, you know, now as we've gone through this project, um, you know, admits that when you see it all put together, it feels right. It is the right choice. But at that time, like there was, yeah, I was like, yes, thank you, Bill.

You come in, you backed me up. You didn't even know it. And then you left.

[Bill Kenney]

And then I bounce.

[Will Devlin]

It was like, it was a wonderful moment.

[Bill Kenney]

I wanted to highlight really quickly something you were talking about, um, and, and share. You talk about this concept that we help people understand what they're going to see for the first time is new. It's different.

They're going to have a hard time understanding what it is. And like, you're going to have to adapt to change and it's uncomfortable. And for the people listening and watching, we literally, in the deliverables, as Will and his team are receiving this for the first time, their strategy pages leading up to it, right?

There's no logos or colors or anything yet. Then there's a section and these are individual pages that say basically stop. Let us talk to you for a minute. You're about to see things that are brand new. You've never seen these before. They're going to mean nothing to you. That doesn't mean they're bad.

That doesn't mean they won't work. Have an open mind. Let's talk. And then we go into the visual. So we do that both in like people to people kind of coaching, if you will, but we put it in the deliverable as well. Because we've just seen it so many times, right? 600 projects plus in now over 15 years, we understand the mental frigging hurdles that it is to look at these deliverables.

It goes like, I don't get it. I don't get it. I don't understand it. Oh no. I've seen things like that. I don't like them. I've seen it over. And those are fair. Those are natural instinctual reactions, but we have to move past that initial reaction to be like, but what is it? Will it work? What does the customer think?

And all of these other things. So yeah, we, We go so hard on that front that we actually put it in the deliverable. Maybe that's, yeah, I don't know. Maybe, maybe we over index on that front, but I think it is helpful.

[Will Devlin]

It's totally helpful. I don't think you can't over index on that. I mean, we, and we would, as we shared things with other parties internally, um, you know, we echoed that same advice. Like, what you're about to see is different. It's meant to be different. Remember, we all talked about this, right? Like, we all want it to be different.

So. Just prepare yourselves that it's different. Um, and be open to it.

[Bill Kenney]

You made a great point, which I'll just double down on, which is the fact that you, you did wait so long, and you said it right. Like, we knew we needed change. We were so hungry for change that literally anything quote unquote was going to be better. That's actually a healthy position to be in.

That was a benefit to you. As opposed, sometimes people are like, I don't know if we really need it. Is it fully broken? Why, why are we doing this? Uh, that makes it harder to sell stuff through. Uh, so that actually worked to your advantage. All right, let's, let's go to the other side of the coin though. Okay. So those were some of the challenges, which are totally surmountable, especially when you have the right partner, what was the most rewarding part of the project?

[Will Devlin]

I mean, there's several things. Um, I think the most rewarding thing when I look back on it, and you always think you want to something how something makes you feel. That is a very brand way of looking at things, but the project itself was so smooth. And so I think one of the things I'll remember about it is how smooth it was.

I think we went into it expecting it to be tough and, you know, for there to be a lot of passion that came to a head and places where we were stuck with each other and couldn't get past something. And that never really took place. And I do credit the partnership and the fact that your team managed us very well.

Um, and so again, when you're looking for a partner, find that extension of your team. The project came through on time. Each iteration got us more and more excited and closer. Obviously there's, you know, creative acumen there, but it was also just the expectation setting up front where it was, here's what we're going to need from your team to keep this project moving.

I need a core team where you're going to need to meet with that core team on these days and be prepared to answer these questions and make these decisions on these days, we're going to give you deliverables on these other days, right? It was very, very clearly laid out. Very strict about, um, who was involved in that core team and who should not be involved is probably the more, you know, you could have too many cooks in the kitchen.

It was very much like this core team needs to be this size and represent these voices. So there was always in that lens, meaningful discussion. There were disagreements for sure in passion, but nothing ever came to an impasse where we felt like we can't make a decision here. Um, and I think a project like this with high expectations.

So many opinions, especially from people in marketing and the C suite, have so many different opportunities to go sideways or stall. And this never did. And to me, that is the most unexpected reward of the whole project aside from it feeling, um, you know, the output of it is amazing and we all feel so good, but, um, you know, it's just the smoothness of the overall thing.

Now everything was purposefully done and I love that part of it. Like as everything inched closer every week, like there was something that just felt that just that stuck. We're going to throw a few things at the wall. We're going to wipe the slate clean. A few of those things are going to stick on the wall and we're going to keep throwing things.

And I loved that. Um, and the other unexpected thing that I really enjoyed was your team had obviously, one of the reasons we selected you as tech expertise and industry knowledge, but. The requirement going into the project was not for us to, it was never mentioned like you need to make sure that this looks and sounds like a tech brand.

[Bill Kenney]

Ah, yeah.

[Will Devlin]

And so that opened up a lot of different possibilities for what this thing could be. Um, and I thought that was such an unexpected, just cool part of this whole project. Cause again, like you might have an idea of what the end result looks like, but we were purposefully told. We're not going to box ourselves into, does this feel tech brandy or not, right?

Um, and I think that really just allowed us to be much freer with the ideas and open to, yeah, let's go completely dark mode on this thing, or let's use this color that you don't see very often and really helped us kind of ease into this, you know, what ended up being felt very much like a high end, almost in some cases like a fashion brand or, or some of those types of things where it's like, you know, this is very artsy and very sophisticated and isn't immediately identifiable as, oh, that's a software company.

And I think that's terrific. Yeah, I love that about it.

[Bill Kenney]

Credit to you all for coming in, like you had to come in with open eyes and open hearts and all of these things to be able to accept that broad journey though, right? You could have come in with some predisposed ideas of like, okay, well, it has to be this. It has to be this. And we could have done our job and pushed back a little bit, but if you push harder than we say, okay, well, you know, I'm not gonna win this battle.

Okay. They want to look super tech. Let's just make sure that we're following within the guardrails of serving them well, and you know, y'all came in really open to all ideas. Um, and that's now that's a result of that, right? It doesn't happen without that.

[Will Devlin]

Yeah, you underestimate the power of hating your existing brand enough.

[Bill Kenney]

There’s the main takeaway.

[Will Devlin]

I want to get as far away from this as possible.

[Bill Kenney]

Wait a long time, hate it to hell and back, and then just like, try all the things. Everything will be great.

[Will Devlin]

Yep. Be open to everything.

[Bill Kenney]

Um, yeah, you shared a lot of good stuff in there and I hope people are really taking to heart the things that matter in the project, right? Again, we're not spending a lot of time talking about,Oh, this one color is like the best color ever.

And that's going to result in higher customer retention. It's. We're building at the brand level so we can get really brand woo woo if we decide to, um, but to go on a journey like this, to go through the process with a partner, it's a lot of the intangible stuff.

It's being open minded and being patient and, and all these other things. Um, all right, that takes us to now. I know the brand, God, when did it launch? It's only been a couple months now, right? This is very new still.

[Will Devlin]

Not even that it's, it's very new. It's been about a month, a little over a month, so it's still very fresh.

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah. So I'm not going to ask you the like, what's the ROI so far? It's way too soon, right? Sometimes let's be real. Sometimes the true ROI of a new kind of brand foundation, identity, all these things, it takes years and years and years for that then to compound on itself and become really, really sticky.

But has there been anything you've been able to do even right out of the gate that might just be tactical that is now easier as a result of this, or like what impact are you seeing? Maybe it's just a big, broad question.

[Will Devlin]

Yeah. I mean there's actually several things. I mean, even from an immediate impact. I mean, we're obviously seeing, uh, there's been a lot of positive discussion and feedback. So, you know, that's always nice when you launch something like this. I think we had prepared, especially with such a drastic change to receive some negative comments and feedback.

Particularly from our own colleagues that, you know, it's like, Hey, this is our new brand. This is the new MessageGears. Right. And, uh, you know, internally, there's a lot of affinity for what's familiar. And we actually never encountered that, which is really interesting.

That was, um, you know, a lot of great external feedback. So all of that's wonderful. Um, but it is early, but we've been able to feel like, look, this allows us to present as our authentic selves.

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah. There you go.

[Will Devlin]

You know, part of this project was, you know, take the visuals out of it, was finding our voice, clarifying what we do into simple terms and simple messaging and language and then applying that persona and that voice across everything you do.

Internal and external. And it's allowed us to do that. We've never felt like we've been able to take what we know internally has been our special sauce and the excitement we have over what we do and how we service customers and, uh, you know, the joy we get in seeing them do amazing things with our software, we've never felt like we've had something that represented that in any way, shape or form.

So that has been a big, big differentiator, right? The product positioning, the new voice, it really allows us to be more succinctly and clearly articulate what we do and what our benefits are. And that’s something we've struggled with forever. Um, obviously the visuals allow us to stand out. They allow us to be more consistent.

They give us a solid framework to build on. It allows us to feel more confident too, in ourselves and more, you know, more out there, like this is, you know, you feel good when you wear nice clothes, like it's a little bit of how it is. It's like you walk in the room with a little bit more swagger.

Um, you know, we had a board member even put it like, and they tend to think of everything in terms of dollars and cents and what's the ROI, but, um, you know, one of them is like, yeah, I just don't know how else to describe this other than this this is amazing.

This looks cool. Like it looks cool. Now the brand feels right. So, um, early returns, obviously, you know, positive feedback. It's allowed us to be authentic, but it has resulted in some higher velocity and advancement of early stages and deals and discussions again, because we're kind of walking in with some swagger.

We're more succinct. We're more clear and we're more confident with how we talk about ourselves and getting to the point very quickly for people. We look the part and feel the part and sound the part. And I think that, you know, that's what we wanted. And early returns are really good there.

[Bill Kenney]

Great, right. You know, we all, we all kind of harp on the like, well, what's the return or the ROI? Like we’re looking for a dollar to dollar match. It's like, yeah, but those three things you just said before the dollars even come back on it, you know, they are positive.

They will not, not return something. Um, you made me think of something else too. Um, and I want to spend just a second highlighting the strategy team and the writing team in these branding projects. Visuals get a lot of the emphasis, right? Cause we all look at things, right? So then we think of visual identity is pixels.

[Will Devlin]

That's right.

[Bill Kenney]

Um, yes, that's a great reminder that the strategic work and the writing work for you all was paramount. And it is for most projects, like all our projects start there for a reason, but for you all that even has more impact. And it makes me think of this line that I kind of, I say provocatively now and again on LinkedIn, uh, which is we don't sell brand, we sell clarity and like what's, what's the clarity in a business worth.

Measure that, right? Like the reduction of friction of even saying what you do to anybody. I mean, that has impacts inside, outside, everywhere across the business. Um, so I'm glad that you all got that. And it's funny how those things even start coming back to the attributes exercise, y'all pick the Maverick and, um, these types of things, right?

It starts to give you that clear. Oh, Oh, that's our swagger. We're more like that type of vibe, right? Now you start to get clear and it's a thread that pulls all the way through. For the people that are more interested in that, this is now a plug that I don't usually do, definitely go to the case study though, because we talk about the Maverick specifically and what it informed within the identity and how we built on top of that.

Great stuff. Great stuff. All right. I'm going to hit you with the big banger question. I'm going to get us the hell out of here.

[Will Devlin]

Okay.

[Bill Kenney]

If you were sitting down with one of your peers or anybody for that matter, a founder of another business, et cetera, and they were like, I'm about to go on a big rebrand journey and you could only tell them one thing. One pro tip. What would it be?

[Will Devlin]

One thing, bro?

[Bill Kenney]

Yep.

[Will Devlin]

Have an open mind. I mean, you know, to me, the 4 words, I mean, there's a lot to unpack under that, you know, but, the success of this project required us as a team to be completely open with what path we were going to go down. Again, we knew we wanted to be anywhere, but where we were, and there's a lot of different ways we could get out of that spot.

And we just collectively had a completely open mind, and I think that was a requirement for us to be successful. I mean, there's other things like you need to trust the experts and elaborate and be willing to flex on some things. But I think, you know, have that open mind. And then once you find that thing, like, go, go all in, like, just own it, go for it, do it.

That's it. I mean, just, you can't, you can't force something if you already have an idea of where you want to go.

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah. Well said.

[Will Devlin]

It won't work as well.

[Bill Kenney]

Yeah. And you know that that open mind, you know, you're basically saying one portion is a really important portion that maybe that's the umbrella that everything else falls under anyways, right? You talked about trusting your partner and all that. You have to have an open mind to do all of that stuff.

Um, and another point you were making there, which I think is interesting. We try to share this too, which is like success is not one single end point. Like for you all. It could have been a different solution that was still successful. It could have been a solution over here that was still successful. So there's not one solution at the end, but it is the journey that you go on that gets you to a solution that will then become kind of the new brand and the new identity.

But again, you have to have an open mind. Uh, the creative process, it's a journey to use that word for the 78th time in this episode. Uh, it serves you well to have an open mind to go on that, uh, creative process journey.

[Will Devlin]

Yeah it was, it was awesome. Honestly, the whole project was one of the highlights of my career. I mean, just the output, um, the work, the collaboration. And it made me look great, first of all, but I mean, it's just, you know, learned so much about who we are as a business and how to collaborate and, you know, manage projects and, and learn about, you know, what's the most important aspects of finding yourselves through that process.

Like you mentioned, like, it's not just pretty pictures and icons. It really is finding your voice, finding your personality, and leaning into it.

[Bill Kenney]

Bringing the business back to center and then moving from that position forward again. Yeah, again, like what's the value in that? It's huge. Our leading why statement in our company is unlock the potential in the people around us.

That's our why statement. That's why we get out of bed. It's not branding. But it's to use branding as a vessel to unlock that potential and people like yourselves and the companies you work at, et cetera. So to hear what you just said, that's mission achieved for us. So I'm really happy to hear that.

[Will Devlin]

Sure.

[Bill Kenney]

Uh, all right, sir. Well, I don't know when we'll see you again, but I'm going to loop back around. I want to hear what's cooking over there.

[Will Devlin]

Yeah, listen, uh, I, I can't thank your team enough for the collaboration and the output. And, um, yeah, I mean, with anybody that wants any other advice on this project or other projects or who to work with, hit me up, hit Bill up for sure.

[Bill Kenney]

Talk to Will. He's been through the whole entire thing now. You don't have to hire us. Talk to him.

[Will Devlin]

In one piece.

[Bill Kenney]

All right, sir. Uh, thanks again. A big thanks from my team. I'll see you out there on the internet.

[Will Devlin]

Thanks Bill. Thanks for having me on.

[Bill Kenney]

All right.